Utilisateur:ReyHahn/Brouillon

This discussion concerns other discussion in English Wikipedia, if you are reading this be free to comment but also be patient and wait until it is properly published. It is just being carried here to organize ideas more calmly.

With all that said let me address my decision with more precision:

• Let me start with a vote to please have non-consensus closure. This is mainly what this conversation merits. As you all may have seen this conversation has been very chaotic and it is not self-consistent it is based on a lot of moves and rehash of request that happened in parallel with many other discussions. Concerns have been raised in every RM of this article, requesting to start first a clean discussion on the topic of this article before making another conflicting RM. I will leave here collapsed a history of the RMs for those that might miss it:
• The title Macuto raid was chosen for this event, it appears in the sources and was clearly supported with other raid events.
• A first RM was created to move this into a "2020 Venezuelan coup attempt" while many arguments were raised for and against it was closed as "non consensus".
• After a short conversation. A second RM was created to reconcile under another name, the title Operation Gideon was accepted for being well documented too.
• Years later, a third RM opens up on requesting 2020 Venezuelan coup all my concerns of how that discussion was not adequate can be read there. It ended in no-consensus.
• A request to review the decision of that request is raised by the result was confirmed to be non consensus.
• A discussion on a new title starts but gets obscured by a fourth RM is opened and this very own fifth RM that were opened very close to one another. This is pretty disruptive even if it was not intentional.
• How could anybody take these three conversation seriously? As expected the lack of activity made it closure on the fourth RM but somehow the fifth RM did not get the same treatment.
• More people start diverging back to the coup title in the discussion and the fifth RM gets more activity on what was addressed to be "not the topic"
• The fifth RM gets relisted as under a new title. And in three days gets different shapes and forms with constant modifications that have made it look to what it looks now.
• Closing this conversation would allow to rediscuss the title in more civilized manner, and if needed, request an RM with a proper "reason" field that we can mostly agree on.
• Oppose as: No new arguments have been brought out to the table. I know that each RM should be treated in its own right. But given what I said in point 1, this is not a self-consistent conversation and most users here are not taking it as such. Not even old links have been provided to support this move. Here is a quick surve that I made to try to avoid the WP:SOURCECOUNTING problem:

Sourcecounting is the most common argument in these conversation where every now and then somebody drops a new link to say "see this says 'coup'", but obviously when it is used in articles is not the only name. This list is mostly all reliable sources on the matter and it clearly does not show WP:COMMON for the proposed title.

Oppose as: The WP:COUP is an excellent essay on why we should avoid coup in the titles of articles like this one. It is charged politically and carries certain value, that is undeniable. Here we have a clearly failed plot that reached absolutely nothing. Just because somebody makes a noisy attempt to attack the authorities is not a reason to call it a coup (there is a list of raid articles like this in Venezuela), the only reason why this affair has gained some popularity (enough to have an article) is because there is a foreign citizen involved.

Keep the current title as: most votes I have seen so far are based on WP:CODENAME. There is a reason why there are still some 'codename' articles in Wikipedia. It is because there are exceptions and this clearly merits the rule because COUP is just not WP:COMMON or neutral. Some have addressed that "Macuto bay raid" was not clear on when it happened, but Operation Gideon (2020)' clearly keeps the date in the title. Just because it is between parenthesis does not make it less clear.

'Oppose' as I have tried to review newer more digested sources (not news article) and have not found anything directly on the topic that addresses a different name. As I have suggested, aside from self-published or un-weightable journals. Books are the best way to find how this term has been used. Sadly we only keep a few mentions in books about different topics that are not history of Venezuela. All of them about politics. Here is one and clearly does not call it a coup [1], but uses Operation Gideon.

• I would like to point out that in recent conversations I have not seen any arguments against this title based on WP:FRINGE.